A chat continued from a comment on my earlier post on Sita. It was a long chat and made me think some so decided to post it (in a slightly formatted manner) here.
me: hey.. briefly saw the comment..just wanted to clarify..which i guess the post didn’t do..
vishvesh: be my guest
me: that it’s not that i thot the men were responsible for how the women thought..that attitude pisses me off like it’s his responsibility to stop making u feel like a second class citizen just wanted to add that..
vishvesh: got it and that is exactly my point If a man told you how great his wife is, will you feel the same way?
me: but no man (and i only mean my friends) has ever said that to me..but lots of women have..
vishvesh: How come the same statement coming from different people evoke different reactions? What if they did?
me: I’d tell them the same thing
vishvesh: and may be Men don’t say such things
me: that why does it have to be such a big deal if u are treated as an equal.. isn’t that a given ??my post.. or at least parts of it. are about women being grateful that they are treated like equals.. equating it to such a wonderful husband.. and his great nature..
vishvesh: well, don’t we exclaim a lot of things which are given
me: that’s a very generic statement..
vishvesh: I love my house..I say this every few weeks and have a good discussion at home with everyone saying the same things
me: i’ve never hear any guy say.. oh u know my girl freind said this.. and am so lucky she did..
loving ur house..and being grateful because ur husband treats u well is not quite the same thing
vishvesh: but that may have to do with the ways guys share or speak. I know My point it two-fold
me: yeah.. i agree guys perhaps aren’t that vocal.and am not even saying it’s the guy’s responsibility.. or any such thing..
vishvesh: Guys will hardly say it…know what, guys will never publicly discuss their wives and if they do, always in the lighter vein
me: am only annoyed because every where else women will fight for the right for equally..and here they readily take crumbs. and are grateful
vishvesh: and married women, when they meet, the first things they discuss is their husbands and it is a serious discussion
me: and true women do discuss more then men..and most of the discussions, i’ve quoted i wasn’t a part of. but this bit I somehow chanced on, in another conversation.
u said ur point was two-fold?
vishvesh: let me reiterate the first one
your observation could be due to the fact that men tend not to say these things…Consider if they were and if a few men did say it, would you be annoyed? take a hard look at this question and then we can go further in the discussion
me: ok then wait.. i have to clarify my irritation is completely directed at women men dont feature in the post.. not for the reason u imply
me: and second point?
vishvesh:there is a reason I am bringing men in this equation
me: ok..i think i wld be annoyed because to be grateful because someone treats u fairly, in a relationship meant to be of equals (yes i know this isnt the case) wld bug, men or women. does that anwer ur question?
vishvesh: yes so with that, the same thing applies to men in the relationship as well..so this question may not be Ram V/s Sita! anyhow, the other fold is or you have something to say to this one?
me: no no carry on..
vishvesh: so if it is established that regardless of men or woman exclaiming about the nature of their spouse, if you would be irritated then, it may not be about women or feminism or whatever it is
me: yes to the relationship angle…. not nature.. completely. i mean only this aspect in particular
vishvesh: It may simply be someone being grateful to his or her partner
me: grateful he lets u decorate the house, or spend ur money the way you want..i don’t think these are any reasons to be grateful unless it was a complete mismatch of words when it was being conveyed to me.. and the last conversation was with me.. so i know i dint mistake being affectionate and being grateful are completely different things.. esp not when all these women are otherwise very successful and independent, esp financially. make decision, run their offices/job /tasks etc all in the 30s. so these aren’t really kids who don’t know what they are saying.. again, no one’s fault in particular and its more to do with conditioning.. but its pissing off nevertheless.
phew! done for now i think u were saying?
this discussion will need to be carried out in person…whenever we meet!
me: the only man man enough to comment on my post. am very proud
vishvesh: I mean there is nothing being ‘man enough’..I just think this isn’t a feminist or a ‘woman’ issue…I am sure men feel grateful about their wives too..just that isn’t always expressed in words to their friends etc.. in plain words, I think you are overreacting!!!!!!!!!!!!!
me: ok.. ill put it differently are u grateful ur wife had ur baby?
vishvesh: aagh, got you!
me: sigh I always overreact but these are strong issues for me
vishvesh: let me answer the first oneI am not grateful she delivered my baby but I am grateful she went through all that pain and all….
me: see u get the difference that’s why u made the distinction
vishvesh: In marriage, there is always a time when you are grateful to your partner
vishvesh: and there are times when you are too grateful
me: i know that.. (tho single and all that jazz)
vishvesh: no but this is different
me: but this grateful and what these women are saying is different
vishvesh: let me ask you a question
me: wait..on teh baby issue
vishvesh: do you feel grateful to your parents?
me: it’s not interchangeable
vishvesh: IT IS!
me: it is??? u can have the baby too? I’ll get back to the parents part in a bit..
i meant u cant have the baby.. only she can .. so that grateful ness.. is mixed with many other things.
me: and it’s part of the relationship
vishvesh: got it
me: but the grateful i am talking about.. is say for instance..ur wife tom came upto u and said..i havent told.. how grateful i am because u are polite to me/ dont beat me up/ let me work/ etc that’s appalling..(i know she wont..) just an example
vishvesh: and what if I told the same to my wife? Will you feel equally appalled?
me: but wld u? do u think about it? do u think wow she is so polite??
vishvesh: WHY NOT? WHY CAN’T I?
me: yes u can.. but u wldnt.. because its a given..
vishvesh: that is what I am trying to say for a looong time now to you
me: is ..
vishvesh: why is it given? that, this gratefulness cuts both ways and so if you happen to hear only from one set of partners, doesn’t necessarily have to be a gender issue
me: but when am i saying that it only cuts one way??? but tom any partner says
vishvesh: if you aren’t saying that, where is the gender thing come in between? why it has to be a Ram and Sita thing?
me: i am saying as an independent women u have no business being grateful to man because he is polite in ur husband’s role. do u walk around thanking ur boss because he is polite? because he is being polite, treating you with respect
vishvesh: Me, I do
me: is everyone’s right
vishvesh: but then, I have a boss like that
me: i am polite too.. but i dont thank ppl because they are polite..
vishvesh: arey but that isn’t a close personal relationship
me: exactly my point.
vishvesh: okay, let me try it this way when people marry, they always have it in their mind that life together will be different..It will be exciting but it will also mean compromises Now, if any of your ‘perceived’ compromises haven’t come true, you may exclaim in happiness big deal!
me: maybe that’s why am single vishvesh. compromise to means different things.. i guess. smaller things less consequential..
vishvesh: phir tumne samasya badal daali!
me: i still think we are looking at the same thing from diff ends and about the parents i dont know if grateful is the word i’d use. i am happy they are my parents and for all the opportunities they gave me. and will do everything i can to keep them happy but am i grateful, i am not so sure. which is perhaps why i still think i wont have kids.
vishvesh: my only submission is that everything is not a Man V/s woman issue..in fact a lot of such issues are more due to the difference in the way the genders Behave
me: but i never said.. it was a man vs woman thing
vishvesh: reading your post that what appeared to me
me: am saying women get a grip on your selves ok.. that’s my mistake then wrong phrasing in the post
vishvesh: I thought the entire Sita reference was accentuated because of socially dominant thinking/behavior of the Ram and this ‘grateful’ thing being a case in point may be I need to read better
me: the sita context was yes, she, thru conditioning, is projected as the ideal wife
vishvesh: Didn’t Ram also inflict the pain of separation on himself?
me: yes true which is also almost always mentioned how he never married again.. but am a hard woman (if u don’t know that as yet)
vishvesh: besides, wouldn’t He be aware that he would be criticized no end…Also, wouldn’t he have felt the pain of not being as dutiful to His wife as he should be?
me: i know i know
vishvesh: My point is just because men aren’t expressive, they are kind of take for a ride. Ram could have lived his entire life in guilt
me: what guilt!!???oh god can’t do this on chat
Though the chat ended inconclusively (I think), I constantly read and re-read it and still think that though percieved as a difference in behaviour in genders issue, it’s still so much about expectation that anything apart and women tend to think how different and good an experience it is and my god, they must be lucky. We, as a gender, perhaps are really used to constantly even belittling ourselves hence the surprise.